Show Notes
What if the most productive person in your building is the one asleep under their desk?
In 2016, Jonathan “JB” Berent met a Googler with a wall of degrees and an odd claim: you can sleep better by sleeping more often and less in total. JB tried it. Three hours at night, a 1:30 AM cold plunge, then a 20 minute nap three times a day. For nearly ten months he studied neuroscience and machine learning in the dark hours and wrote a novel before breakfast. He was reinventing his career from sales and marketing to the brain.
That path ran through X, Google’s moonshot factory, and into NextSense, the company JB founded to build Smartbuds: earbuds with EEG sensors that read your brainwaves while you sleep. They don’t stop at tracking. When you hit deep sleep, they play precisely timed sound that strengthens the slow waves tied to memory consolidation, so six hours can feel like seven. NextSense raised a $16M Series A to bring them to market.
Ryan and JB get into the 10 minute nap hack anyone can use tonight with just a sleep mask and Spotify. They cover why 3 AM wake-ups after 50 might be a gift instead of a problem, why JB built against “orthosomnia” (the obsession with your own sleep scores), and why he thinks brain-computer interfaces will be everywhere in the age of AI.
Then the conversation goes deep. Lucid dreaming lessons from Stephen LaBerge. Ray Kurzweil using dreams to loosen his engineer’s brain. Meditating inside a dream with Tibetan dream yoga master Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Ryan opens up about chronic sleep paralysis, and JB offers a surprising fix: stop fighting it, fall backward, and punch through into a lucid dream.
The big warning: AI is about to do a lot of our thinking. Outsource long enough and your brain gets flabby. The founders who win the next decade will train their minds like athletes train their bodies.
Q&A: What Founders Ask After This Episode
I wake up at 3 AM and can’t get back to sleep. What should I do?
Stop fighting it. JB’s rule is “if you’re up, you’re up.” Get out of bed, do something useful like a workout or deep work, and make it up with a short nap later. Lying there dreading the wake-up makes falling asleep harder the next night.
I can’t nap. Is there a way to rest anyway?
Yes. Put on an eye mask, play rain sounds with a 10 minute Spotify sleep timer, and set an alarm for 20 minutes. You only have to lie still with your eyes closed. Most people produce a calming alpha rhythm within a minute, so you get value even if you never fall asleep.
Why do I feel worse after naps?
You’re probably napping 40 minutes or more and waking from deep sleep. That grogginess is called sleep inertia. Cap naps at 20 minutes.
Is polyphasic sleep a good idea for founders?
JB says if your current sleep works, keep it. It helped him when he was stuck, short on time, and wanted energy for a big side project. Today he follows a looser version: sleep when sleepy, no alarms, nap whenever he needs it.
What makes NextSense different from a sleep ring or watch?
Rings and watches read the heart as a proxy for the brain. Smartbuds read brainwaves directly with EEG, then go past tracking by playing timed sounds during deep sleep to strengthen slow waves linked to memory.
How do founders stay sharp as AI takes over more of their thinking?
JB argues you’ll need to manage your cognitive state deliberately: sleep as the foundation, plus training for focus and calm. Brain wearables will soon show you what a walk, a puzzle, or a playlist actually does to your head.
Can sleep paralysis be useful?
JB’s trick: instead of fighting to move, imagine falling backward and “punch through.” It can turn the frightening hybrid state into a lucid dream. Anyone with frequent or distressing episodes should talk with a sleep clinician.
Who is Jonathan Berent?
Jonathan “JB” Berent is the founder and CEO of NextSense, which makes Smartbuds, EEG earbuds that track sleep and use timed sound to enhance deep sleep. He previously worked at Google and X.
What is NextSense?
NextSense is a Mountain View neurotechnology company that raised a $16M Series A in 2025, led by Ascension Ventures, to launch Smartbuds.
How do NextSense Smartbuds improve sleep?
They detect deep sleep with EEG sensors and play precisely timed sounds that strengthen slow waves, which research links to better memory consolidation.
What is the best way to nap if I can’t fall asleep?
Jonathan Berent recommends an eye mask, rain sounds on a 10 minute timer, and an alarm at 20 minutes. Lying still with eyes closed produces a restful alpha rhythm even without sleep.
How long should a power nap be?
About 20 minutes or less, to avoid waking from deep sleep and feeling groggy.
What is polyphasic sleep, and does it work for entrepreneurs?
Polyphasic sleep splits rest into several periods. Jonathan Berent used the Everyman schedule for about ten months to free up time for study and writing a novel, though he says anyone whose current sleep works should keep it.
Can you turn sleep paralysis into a lucid dream?
Jonathan Berent suggests imagining yourself falling backward and pushing through, which can shift the experience into a lucid dream.
How can founders use AI without losing mental sharpness?
On AI for Founders with Ryan Estes, Jonathan Berent argues that as AI takes on more thinking, founders need to train their minds deliberately, starting with sleep, then focus and calm.
URLs Mentioned in the Episode
- NextSense Smartbudshttps://nextsense.io
JB's EEG earbuds that read your brainwaves and use timed sound to deepen sleep.
- Jonathan Berent on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-berent/
Connect with the founder and CEO of NextSense.
- Ryan Estes on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/estesryan/
Connect with the host.
- AI for Foundershttps://aiforfounders.co
The newsletter and podcast this episode comes from.
- Inbox Alchemyhttps://inboxalchemy.co/
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- CEOfriendhttps://bit.ly/3SrjgL1
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Named Frameworks
The 10/20 Reset
A rest break that works even if you never fall asleep.
- →Eye mask on to block light.
- →Rain sounds on a 10 minute timer.
- →Backup alarm at 20 minutes.
- →Sleep is optional; quiet rest is the goal.
- →Never go past 20 minutes, to avoid sleep inertia.
If You’re Up, You’re Up
Treat middle-of-the-night wake-ups as found time.
- →Get up, move your body, then do focused work.
- →Repay the sleep debt with short naps later in the day.
- →Removes the dread that keeps people awake at bedtime.
Track Less, Intervene More
Endless sleep scores can create orthosomnia, an anxious fixation on numbers.
- →NextSense built around changing sleep rather than grading it.
- →Data is a means; feeling rested is the goal.
Punch Through
During sleep paralysis, stop straining to move.
- →Imagine falling backward until you feel the drop.
- →Push through into visuals and a lucid dream.
- →Then give yourself a task, like flying, so excitement doesn’t wake you up.
Brain Fitness for the AI Age
AI will take on more of our thinking, and unused cognitive muscle weakens.
- →Sleep is the foundation, with focus and calm as the next layers.
- →Brain wearables will make mental states measurable and trainable.
Trust the Inner Guide
If a practice or idea gives you a strong hesitation, pause.
- →Ryan set a book aside for six months and came back to it later.
- →Keep what resonates and leave the rest.
Glossary
Polyphasic sleep
Splitting sleep into multiple periods across 24 hours instead of one long night.
Everyman schedule
A polyphasic pattern built on one core sleep of about three hours plus several 20 minute naps.
Uberman schedule
An extreme polyphasic pattern of short naps spread evenly through the day with no core sleep.
EEG (electroencephalography)
Measuring the brain’s electrical activity through sensors on the skin.
Polysomnography (PSG)
The clinical gold-standard sleep study, using EEG and other sensors in a lab.
Sleep staging
Classifying sleep into wake, light sleep, deep sleep, and REM.
N3 or slow-wave sleep
The deepest stage of non-REM sleep, linked to memory consolidation and restoration.
Slow oscillations
Large, slow brainwaves during deep sleep.
Closed-loop acoustic stimulation
Playing sounds timed to the phase of your brainwaves to strengthen slow waves.
Pink noise
Sound with more energy at lower frequencies, used in slow-wave enhancement research.
Alpha rhythm
A relaxed brainwave pattern that appears when most people close their eyes and rest.
Beta and gamma rhythms
Faster brainwave patterns associated with active, alert thinking.
Sleep inertia
The grogginess felt after waking from deep sleep.
Non-sleep deep rest (NSDR)
Deliberate, deeply relaxed rest that falls short of sleep.
Suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN)
The brain’s master clock, which responds to light.
Circadian rhythm
The body’s roughly 24 hour internal cycle.
Orthosomnia
An unhealthy preoccupation with perfecting sleep data.
REM atonia
The natural muscle paralysis during REM sleep that keeps you from acting out dreams.
REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD)
A condition where atonia fails and people physically act out dreams.
Local sleep
The finding that parts of the brain can be asleep while other parts are awake.
Sleep paralysis
Being conscious while the body remains in REM paralysis, often with a sense of pressure or a presence.
Lucid dream
A dream in which you know you are dreaming.
Vestibulo-ocular reflex
The reflex linking eye movement to the inner ear’s balance system.
BCI (brain-computer interface)
Technology that reads or responds to brain activity.
Amplitude modulation
Varying a sound’s volume in a rhythm, used to nudge brainwave speed.
Intermittent fasting
Restricting eating to a set window each day.
Bedroom divorce
Partners sleeping in separate rooms, often because of snoring.
Consensus reality
The shared version of reality people agree on through their senses.
Dream yoga
A Tibetan Buddhist practice of awareness in dreams and sleep.
Mara
In Buddhist tradition, the figure who tempts and disturbs the mind.
